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US Air Force Advanced Tactical Fighters F-22 Raptor jets proved unable to effectively track the Russian Aerospace Forces jets in Syria, a US 95th Reconnaissance Squadron commander stationed at UAE al-Dhafra air base told Aviation Week.
The unnamed commander noted that as the encirclement around ISIS grows narrower, Russian jets tend to appear near the US-led coalition jets. During these encounters, the coalition forces have to determine where did it come from and whom it belongs to on the spot. According to the commander, F-22 does not have the infrared and optic capability to allow that during nighttime, unlike the Fifth Generation F-35 jets and the Fourth Generation F-15 jets.
He also mentioned that F-22 are unable to transfer data through the Link 16 tactical data exchange network used by other US jets. This results in F-22 pilots having to report visual information on the radio.
F-22 has one more negative compared to F-35. F-22s lack helmet-mounted displays. The commander said that he often had to actively look around in order to find the other plane, finding himself looking where he just had been, instead of seeing on his display where he was exactly.
The commander admitted that the situation in Syria requires fast response times compared to the US Air Force drills and general tactics used by the US military.
Speaking of encounters with Russian jets, the squadron commander told Aviation Week that US pilots tried several times to contact Russian pilots using special communication channels, but they did not usually respond. There is no possible way to determine whether they do not use the frequency at all, or they just decided not to respond, according to the commander.
The F-22 is the first Fifth Generation Fighter jet in the world. It was employed by the US Air Force in 2005, but it stopped being manufactured since 2011 in favor of F-35 jets. Overall less than two hundred F-22 were made.
F22 jets discovered to be faulty in design that they overheat the internal weapons chamber and that their 2D vector thrust destabilize the plane in some scenario. Their wings also tend to be overstressed during a highly taxing maneuvers.
I suspect that they stopped the production because debugging the plane was way too costly and LM had to invest everything in the F-35. In the end, the general feeling is that the famous “5th gen” is the greatest fail in the history of aereonautics, at least from a technical point of view.
From an economical angle though, it’s all right, LM has never been so fat like today, while the US people has never been so indebted.
My thought exactly. It’s design may have been critically failed in some aspect that they scrapped the production line.
f22 was high cost, they came with cheap f35. Currently the most expensive thing so far. It is more a money scheme than anything else.
How about a P51?
perhaps updating teen fighters would be in their best interests? I mean, Trump even proposed it, in the end it all comes down to whose interests are being safeguarded, those of the US people or those of Lockheed Martin?
So at speeds>Mach0.8=roasted pilot?
no?
good job russia
Where is Solomonchik with his “Russia is weak!”? Without him this comments section looks empty.
guess some caution is needed. Don’t forget that in the US, the armed services are enemies to each other when it comes to getting budget increases. This could be the USAF lobbying for money.
Steeped in corruption and misallocation of copious taxpayers funds I feel is approriate?
Or preparing public opinion to shooting down a russian jet… oh, sorry we didnt know what it was
He’s doing business with “big boys” that he tried to scare me by.
I agree, this board looks empty without him. As soon as Al suggested that I poke him in the eye, he vanished!
(Now he’ll come and whine that I threatened to blind him, just like that time when I invited him to Siberia and he told I tried to kill him!!)
Perhaps he was triggered. Oh well, to me the thread smells unusually fresh.
no, you wrote me, you will kill me. i saved your answer, iranian dashbag!
If he ever does try, I’m sure he won’t have a problem finding helpers… :-)
Thats what you get for being a douche.
i know, here are lot of fascists. e.g., the list of scums, who liked tumor megas.
hey im iranian u dashbag!!! lol
I had to laugh at the dashbag thing too)) Maybe it’s an airbag built into the dashboard.
AHAHAHAHHA
No. My history is public, go ahead, show me. I dare you, fluffly
My invitation was not entirely innocent though, I may or may not intended to sell you.
Didn’t I say you’re sweet? What is a dashbag?
What’s a…..dashbag?…
“Where is Solomonchik”
Masturbating most likely…
LOL, to a picture of Hitler & Hillary
Maybe his car broke down on the way to the bagel store.
You should enjoy the respite while it last.
He was reportedly seen attempting to have intercourse with a Bagel late on ‘ :)
He is being re-trained in the ‘ Talmudic School of Thought ‘ Tudor.
He is in King Solomon’s mines.
Perhaps just for once this moron has shut up and gone back to his Marvel Comics which are more in keeping with his intellectual stature.
i see you, russian tumor
So the most modern fighters of the USAF is not as good as they hoped. But now they have about 200 of them and use them as bombers against ISIS. That is not a huge problem since the US aready knows that these types of fighters are crap. Looks like the other jets are able to spot russian jets… so there is nothing the USAF has to be alarmed about.
It is like the new product, which the producer knows is shit, did not sell very well. The title is more just like an eyecatcher.
Right from a perspective of limited aircraft knowledge you would guess the f22 to be more capable than the f15. But goes to show title doesn’t mean shit
Shit go out and ask Navy and Airforce pilots which they think is more combat capable
Oh, no!! The pain!
The pilots have to “actively look around”, you know, the same thing that every pilot worth their salt do.
Strange generation. They come to this world glued to their hand-held screens and apparently die glued to some other screens.
Now is the time for a few dozen billion dollars “upgrade program”.
How do we know that this isn’t disinformation on the part of the US?! Ill take this with a sack full of salt.
The f22 got its IRST deleted because of cost, but is now scheduled to receive is as part of an upgrade. So it is a recognized deficiency already.
https://theaviationist.com/2016/07/13/this-is-what-the-f-22-raptor-stealth-jet-looks-like-through-the-thermal-camera-of-a-crime-fighting-helicopter/
https://theaviationist.com/2014/09/30/these-may-be-the-only-f-22s-achilles-heels-in-a-dogfight-against-4th-gen-fighter-jets/
Since F-35 got funding instead of 22, until 2016, f22 was using heatseekers from 1980-90s.F-22 is still a more high quality airframe. Its internals werent updated for a very long time. F35 is mess of a class of its own.
Guess you may be referring to the AIM-9X. You are correct there too. The F22 had to go without the helmet mounted sight for cuing the AIM-9X. However I was referring to the aircraft’s own InfraRed Search and Track system.
The problem with all new and “cutting edge” tech is that it’s – well ,new and untested, even after a lengthy testing process. That’s because real testing can only be performed in combat, not in controlled lab conditions. That’s why Russia opts for small initial production batches for it’s hi-tech hardware (like T-14 and Su-47). Equipment is then put into regular service and push to the limits so all the bugs are discovered and repaired. Plus you can run a parallele process of upgrade of different sub-systems and software, or even wait for the development of different technologies you don’t posses at present (like Su-47s “quest” for new engine). All without being forced to recall 100s of pcs of equipment to the factories for costly refits. Now a pre requisite for that acquisition strategy is – in Russian case – not being an “exceptional and sole super power” planning on taking over the world. They don’t have to rush things into production because they can successfully defend their country with tried, tested and slightly upgraded old hardware that does the job well enough. Everyone’s favorite “exceptional and indispensable leader of the free world blah..blah..blah” Murica has to churn out unreliable “wonder weapons” in the thousands, in order to bully it’s way around the globe – making sure MIC makes a killing, even if the damned things don’t really work. One must love crony capitalism US style…
F-22 was originally slated to have IRST. It was deleted for cost reasons by US itself. Can’t remember whether it was USAF or Pentagon.
I think you confused Su-57, aka T-50 PAKFA with the Su-47 Berkut aka S-37 with forward-swept wing. Su-57 is the one getting the Second-Stage engines, which are in testing stage
F22 have been updated many times and now have IRST and all weather capability. Update 5 last year and 6 earlier this year saw to that. They were prepped just for this scenario!
Any pictures of in-service F-22s with a built-in IRST? Or at least with a VLO-shaped pod?
Are the pilots still refusing to fly them owing to those oxygen problems?
Huh, this article inspires me beyond available time for this comment.
1) 2 points pro F-35, compared to F-22? Aaaaaand any word on pro F-22 compared to F-35?!? Chicken, a?
2) So, on what language USAF pilots tried to communicate with the Russians? English? So, a USAF pilot, assumes, as bottom-line/ground truth, that all Russian pilots must speak English? How many of USAF pilots speak Russian? Limes tends to zero, I assume.
Russians ceased the agreement they have with USA over syrian skies after they downed that SyAF su-22 that was bombing ISIS, that’s why they don’t answer.
Why would you exchange words with people that only lie, cheat, and betray you on the 1st opportunity?!
dah
F-22 cRaptor
Dropped in favor of the F-35CF (ClsterFck).
Test pilots described the F-35 as a “flying garbage truck”
Are the Americans expecting to be responsible for killing their own terrorflieger like they did with the F-104?
the first prototype
Someone maid billions out of it and RUN !
moneybags!
That it is. F-22 was/is a far superior aircraft. Only reason F-35 replaced the F-22 in production is the Defense lobby being very slimy. They awarded small con tracts to almost every country buying it & to almost every congressional district & every state in USA. So they can pressure each Senator & Congressman to support the F-35. Which they ALL would lose jobs if it was RIGHTFULLY Cancelled. That’s another reason all the components don’t work well with each other. WAY Too many “COOKS IN THE KITCHEN”. Hard to make all those components fit/work with each other. Never will.
NO IT IS FLYING PORKSHOP.
They could use IR sensor pods but that would destroy stealth and aerodynamics. Why are they using F-22 anyway? Are they expecting a dogfight with the Ruskies? Why not use F-18g Growler. No problem with data acquisition or links. Plus they could have both pilot and co-pilot “actively looking around”. :)
I guess they are trying to be stealthy… and failing…
Of course. They’re not supposed to be there, are they.
Is it not odd that US ground radar an/or AWACs are not informing the US pilots of Russian fighters in their immediate vicinity? I would be surprised if this story was legit.
“…The unnamed commander noted that as the encirclement around ISIS grows narrower, Russian jets tend to appear near the US-led coalition jets. During these encounters, the coalition forces have to determine where did it come from and whom it belongs to on the spot…”
Not necessarily. Why does the coalition need to identify any nearby aircraft, Russian or not, “on the spot”? There is no aerial threat to the coalition in Syria – not from Russia or anyone else. The USAF would like to know, but it’s not that important to them in Syria. If they were seriously contemplating an attack, then the last thing on earth they would do is let and unknown threatening aircraft get within visual (optical/infrared) range (WVR). They would have already been fired upon by beyond-visual-range (BVR) air-to-air missiles. Same for the RuAF.
“…According to the commander, F-22 does not have the infrared and optic capability to allow that during nighttime, unlike the Fifth Generation F-35 jets and the Fourth Generation F-15 jets…”
The F-22 was designed as an air superiority fighter specifically to engage known enemy aircraft BVR, not to identify or engage aircraft close enough to see.
“…He also mentioned that F-22 are unable to transfer data through the Link 16 tactical data exchange network used by other US jets…”
Again, by design. They can receive such data, but don’t want to transmit any because then they become an emissive target. They’re not designed to broadcast data, they’re designed to protect other aircraft that are collecting air or battlefield data.
there are in fact some points that does not convince me in the statement but I can try answer some of your notes:
“Not necessarily. Why does the coalition need to identify any nearby aircraft, Russian or not, “on the spot”? There is no aerial threat to the coalition in Syria – not from Russia or anyone else. The USAF would like to know, but it’s not that important to them in Syria. If they were seriously contemplating an attack, then the last thing on earth they would do is let and unknown threatening aircraft get within visual (optical/infrared) range (WVR). They would have already been fired upon by beyond-visual-range (BVR) air-to-air missiles. Same for the RuAF.”
It’s very, very unlikely that the syrian airspace isn’t covered by some form of US radar. They normally operate AWACS planes during every air operation and they have several bases in the area. The RAF base in Cyprus and Incirlik. In addition, Turkish air defence is integrated in NATO one, hence its data should be automatically fed into the US systems (unless Turkey closed the link, but it appears unlikely). With radar coverage, the US coalition is able to discriminate for sure between Russian or other countries planes – the only doubt could be discriminate Russian from Syrian. If the statement is true, it means that RuAF planes can defy US radar coverage and passively getting in position with their OLS. That said, I don’t believe the validity of the statement.
“The F-22 was designed as an air superiority fighter specifically to engage known enemy aircraft BVR, not to identify or engage aircraft close enough to see”
Yes, and adding this to the former statement means that the F-22 cannot engage other planes at all over Syria because they lack both BVR and WVR information, putting them at absolute disadvantage. Again, the F-22 may not have a IRST but I don’t think they fly blindly.
“Again, by design. They can receive such data, but don’t want to transmit any because then they become an emissive target. They’re not designed to broadcast data, they’re designed to protect other aircraft that are collecting air or battlefield data”
Here, I don’t think that the F-22 do not have a transmit mode for the link16 radio by design. The Link16 unit should be pretty standard across platforms and have transmit/receive functions in all cases. This points to them using the unit in receive only mode, to, as you said, avoid emissions. If they decided that way though, it means that emissions discipline is more important to them than data dissemination. Or is an implicit admission that they are subject to jamming, but then again, other planes would be affected too and the statement refers to F-22s only.
This would make think that they are trying to keep the F-22 the more stealthy they can, but why, if there is no threat?
All in all, it seems to me the USAF is lobbying for upgrades to the F-22 fleet, something like, “if we want to keep stealth, we are at disadvantage in all aspects so we need more advanced tech”
“…If the statement is true, it means that RuAF planes can defy US radar coverage and passively getting in position with their OLS. That said, I don’t believe the validity of the statement.”
Agree, but I don’t think the comment meant Russian aircraft are undetectable on radar, either ground-based or airborne. When the F-22 is in certain stealth ‘modes’, its AESA radar is not emitting and it can’t do ISAR (composite radar 2D shape) identification. Between ground-based, AWACS and other aircraft radar, the Russian or Syrian aircraft should already have been ID’ed and tracked well before it gets near the F-22. If that isn’t possible for whatever reason, then – for that mission – the F-22 has to use its own radar. The USAF does not want to do this in Syria at all because Russia will be collecting and analyzing the emission signatures. But then again, there’s really no use for a Gen 5 stealth aircraft at all in Syria, much less one where imaginary threats can get within visual range. I understand why they’re using the F-22 in Syria and I understand why the pilots would love infrared and optical tracking in the Raptors.
“…This would make think that they are trying to keep the F-22 the more stealthy they can, but why, if there is no threat?”
You answered it in your next statement: the ever-persistent budget threat of no more upgrades to the F-22. Infrared/optical search and tracking does make sense for a stealth aircraft and even more so for the added ground attack role. But the F-35 is already the designated ground-attack money pit – the F-22 was suppose to be for stealthy air superiority.
I already have a $640 billion bill for defense in 2018 – I just can’t afford to upgrade every ancient US airframe to perform every combat role imaginable.
“But then again, there’s really no use for a Gen 5 stealth aircraft at all in Syria”
The reason, aside from Deo Cass-like fantasies, could be that it’s a unique envirorment.
In particular, it’s an environment where Russia has deployed some of its advanced air assets and it’s using them in combat.
Therefore, precious data can be gathered, above all about the F-22 type being present in such environment.
It could be that they are cautiously trying to test how able the F-22 is to remain undetected by an advanced OPFOR, perhaps they somehow organized things to gradually “push the limit” (For example, by following Russian bombers in an intercept profile and see how and when the Russians would react).
The statement in itself seem to tell that with current capabilities the F-22 does not give them any advantage over 4th gen fighters – possibly even that it is ad disadvantage.
Yet I would not linger much on the public statements because, as we said, they are made mostly for budgetary reasons, while the technical aspects are normally kept secret.
The point that the article was making was that the pilots cannot identify on the Plane’s data screens.
Whether the ground can see them or not, the pilot needs to know where they are in relation to the pilot. The link would be too slow to give adequate real-time information in any combat situation.
The BVR comment makes no sense. If the plane’s cannot identify whether in or beyond visual, how can they engage? The Russian planes are invisible to the F-22 except when ‘seen’ by the pilot, at which time it is too late if the other had intent to fire.
Whilst the Russians are not engaging over Syria, US is dead set on creating a war with Russia somewhere, sometime, somehow. The fact that the F-35 and the F-22 are not competent to fight the Russians is somewhat significant.
As with most American products, they are too expensive and generally cr*p.
“…The point that the article was making was that the pilots cannot identify on the Plane’s data screens…”
By itself…with the F-22’s AESA radar and ISAR turned off. Link 16 isn’t going to help them maneuver real-time in combat, but they should be able to see how other radars have identified the approaching aircraft from hundreds of miles away. If it truly just ‘pops up’ out of nowhere and the F-22 pilot chooses to remain in stealth mode, then he’s kind of screwed.
“…If the plane’s cannot identify whether in or beyond visual, how can they engage? The Russian planes are invisible to the F-22 except when ‘seen’ by the pilot, at which time it is too late if the other had intent to fire.
The way the F-22 is used in Syria is not the way it would be used in real combat. It would not be sent into the middle of a busy environment in full stealth mode and somehow be expected to defend itself. In its air superiority role, the pilot is able to determine – internally or externally – whether to fire on a BVR target or not. ‘Within visual range’ only means they can distinguish the target as a dot in the sky and point a missile at it, not that they can actually identify the aircraft type and flag. Yes, it’s pretty useless in a dogfight at night in stealth mode.
IR/Optical search and tracking gear is standard on modern European fighters. The US was waaay late to that game. Pretty sure the F-35 is the only one with that built-in capability. Pods for everyone else, which would never be used on the F-22.
…Whilst the Russians are not engaging over Syria, US is dead set on creating a war with Russia somewhere, sometime, somehow…”
Disagree. We need a persistent, imaginary threat to keep the river of taxpayer MIC profits flowing. Russia is about the only one available right now. Chinese and their man-made islands? Nope – just not scary enough to the US public and we seem to owe them a lot of money. We DO want a hot war with Iran because… well, just because.
‘We need a persistent, imaginary threat to keep the river of taxpayer’
you got it.
But what if just by mistake, you happen to hit some real Russian assets, as Turkey did for instance. What if in Ukraine it goes hot as it did in Georgia, just because those idiots are really dumb.There is a lot of posturing and fist waving but some fool might take it seriously. Or the bankers decide that the only way to avoid the noose (Clinton and cohorts plus their handlers and bosses) is to go hot and hope that when it is all over, we forget who caused it. Bush Blair et al are all still walking around (unlike Robin Cook and David kelly).
Some Iranian sergeant whose mother was on flight 655 and killed by the navy, decides that his C-802 (Saccade) needs to be tested.
You can depend on Xi and Putin, but the rest I would not trust with a pushchair let alone tanks and carriers and nukes.
US wouldn’t have those issues if they wouldn’t be their.
“… According to the commander, F-22 does not have the infrared and optic capability to allow that during nighttime, unlike the Fifth Generation F-35 jets and the Fourth Generation F-15 jets…”
Indeed, readers of SouthFront have already pointed out that the F-35 solves every problem there is.
https://southfront.org/bulgarian-mig-29-pilots-refused-to-take-part-in-nato-air-policing/
With the F-35,
(quote from “You can call me Al”)
You don’t need to worry about two engines a plane as it only has one.
You don’t need to worry about getting your hair wet, as it cannot fly in rain.
You don’t need to worry about being scared, because by that time, you will be suffering from one of the F-35’s hypoxia-like cockpit problem.
(“TiredOfBsToo” added) Don’t forget ‘BIRDS’ :-) (until now, No photos of the damages)
Due to concerns on the maximum flight time, the new F-35 LBGT contains battery backup … and gender neutral toilets.
bullshit article
“The unnamed commander” = never existing
1st_ what you wrote about f-22 is bullshit
2nd: if russia had such techology (i doubt), would not bring to light, and would not send such planes in the warzone. similarly, like americanms did not send f-22´s long, long time.
What technology?! The reason why f22 don’t track russian planes is because they are running stealth mode, so their radars are off, and russians are probably jamming US long range ground radars, what is really noteworthy is the fact russians are tracking the f22, which is something was already advertised as a s400 feature.
if the russians were jamming us ground radars it would mean that the situation is much more tense than it is admitted – in fact more tense than ever has been even with the soviet union.
WEll, you have US ilegally flying stealth fighter planes over russia’s A2AD in Syria, I guess it is pretty tense.
The Krasukha-4 is a mobile broadband system, mounted on the BAZ-6910-022 8 X 8 chassis, which interferes with the surveillance radars of military satellites, AWACS ground and air radars, and those mounted on unmanned aircraft (drones). The Krasukha-4 is the only system capable of blurring the Lacrosse / Onyx family of American spy satellites. These satellites travel in low orbit and are equipped with SAR (Synthetic Aperture Radar), which allows them to penetrate the cloud layer as well as the ground or the walls of buildings, with a resolution of 20 cm. https://southfront.org/ultra-secret-weapon-that-allows-russia-to-assume-his-supremacy-in-electronic-radio-war-in-syria/
http://defence-blog.com/army/russias-military-deploys-most-powerful-electronic-warfare-system-in-crimea.html The EW system are aimed at disrupting radio communications at a maximum range of more than 3,000 kilometers (1,864 miles). The jammer is specifically geared at tackling high frequency communications systems, including the High Frequency Global Communications System.
The HFGCS is a worldwide network of transmitters which provides command and control communications between ground agencies and US military aircraft and ships. Washington’s military partners in NATO are said to have access to this network.
**********
LOL. ….US/NATO ….between a rock and a hard place : )
This problem has an easy solution. U.S. “coalition” (terrorists) are an illegal presence in Syria. Take your troops, airplanes, guns, chemical.weapons, money and go home.
HAHAHAHAHA !!!VERY VERY FUNNY !!!US.LOST 5 CARRIERS THIS YEAR ONLY …THEY DO NOT MAKE THEM FOR USE THESE DAYS ,ITS MAID ONLY FOR SHOW ..IT LOOKS LIKE !
In other words, as it is not an old plane (unlike e.g. the F16) & already falling short of army needs, the F22 is garbage. But obviously the US needs to keep using it because it has nothing better for now. $700 billion/year & still using crappy equipment – how is that possible? Simple: most of that obscene budget goes to keeping defence contractors & their bigwigs happy – the soldiers’ lives on the ground, in the air & on sea clearly count for …. zilch.
So Russian Airfighters are again unprofessional and amateurish not respecting International rules, but are delieberately jeopardizing American lives and innocent civilians with their actions.
CNN, WP, NYT and Fox News will report this fact and the truth to the Western public…..because you cant obstruct free speech in US as you do in your country.
Russian are regal but US are not in Syria ,US status their by international law are invader or mafia.
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6ed0426c0a5e6fb5d0a2bb2121835db02e3a2d7161eebafa63a376b3a005830d.jpg
but it stopped being manufactured since 2011 in favor of F-35 jets….. and the fact they cost $350million+ each…..When the Chinese and the rest of the world were forced to us the$ as the world’s trade currency (and pat us usury), we could “afford” these over priced turds. We (Lockheed Martin) have coerced they EU to use the flying turkey F35 so we CAN “afford” that one. We (Americans) are going to have to relearn how to make our own shoes and doodads when we collapse economically. Beware, stand way back so our dying bloated carcass dosen’t land on you. Its going to be messy.
What a lot of BS. F22 raptor is fully night operational ATA and ATG and more than match for any Mig. This sort of Shiite is only printed to boost the ego of Iranians and Russians alike, letting them believe they have a chance lol. You only need a basic F16 to bring down Russian planes. Just ask the useless Turks. Before anyone says it was an unexpected attack, remember, don´t be Peni´s, Written invitations have never been part of aerial warfare. Migs have the lousiest reputation against American planes and yet all we hear is how superior Russian tech is lol. Oh well, cant help them all lol
I do’t believes that US army just expert in running away from Vietkong.
I’m an American, I voted for Trump, but I want to see the U.S. defeated in Syria, we have no business there whatsoever! I love Putin, long live Putin!
F22 nickname is FLYING ANTIQUE and F35 is FLYING PORKSHOP .
Russia legally in Syria, unlike the US.