The ISIS terrorist group has released fresh photos, showing Turkish military hardware which had been captured or destroyed by terrorists during the clashes for the city of al-Bab in northern Syria.
Captured M60T main battle tank:
Captured Cobra armoured vehicles:
A destroyed ACV-15 combat vehicle:
A destroyed Cobra vehicle:
Destroyed Leopard-2 main battle tanks:
Captured Cobra vehicle, M60T main battle tank and ACV-15 combat vehicle:
Destroyed Leopard-2 main battle tanks:
I feel pity for the turkish soldiers sacrificed by their own government in order to supply second hand armour etc to IS, especially when they are conscripts.
It is very cynical of them, but then, Erdogan is a cynical guy.
Not really.
ISIS doesn’t have as ready of a supply of parts/ammo for these types of tanks. In the end, the whole lot appears to be disposable…
erdoKhan, his son and his daugther is become “Goldfinger” from Syrian war.
His daughter is marriaged a turkish military company owner.
And his son is going rich through the oel-trading with ISIS.
..so WTF?!?
Erdogan is a douche bag Hitler-wannabe !
Great Caesar’s Ghost , Holy Moses, and Gottverdamt – M60T (Sabra) is the latest export version from Israel, Leopard 2A4 is (was) the pride of the Bundeswehr ! Now I’m starting to get scared !
These particular tanks are older versions.
They don’t have the protection against anti-tank missiles from my understanding.
Also, seems the turkish army doesn’t have a clue about this type of warfare.
What makes it worse is that they are relying on the FSA to provide infantry support, when the FSA themselves are hacks themselves.
They say that when a disaster occurs, it is actually a culmination of a series mishaps that give the end result.
And here you have it.
during the 2006 war, hezbollah antitank unit destroyed / damaged the most modern tank in the world , the merkava mark IV , with combined salvoes of RPG , Sagger (old ATGM) and Metis / Kornet , saturating the tank defenses..
any military unit have to march with what they got in inventory and what they trained with. It is a poor excuse to say “they dont have the latest” because that imply armchair wargaming instead of reality of war.
Following more research on the subject, I have come to the conclusion that these tanks use a very old british design that sucked badly from the beginning.
They might have as well have been running around naked…
which tank use old british design ?
It would seem that the Leopard 2As4 has a major flaw in its armor.
You can easily see that most of the damage that these Leopards took was from the front, where supposedly the armor is thickest/best. The projectiles/missiles where able to go right in and light off the onboard ammo, which caused the turret to be blown off. This also brings up why such a catastrophic explosion took place in the first place. The ammunition storage area on the Leopard is simular in concept as the M1 abrams, where a special area is reserved for the ammunition and in case of ammunition cook off, a panel is supposed to blow off instead of the whole turret.
Many interesting things going on in those pictures. Seems the turkish tankers are poorly trained at best, and sent into battle without proper support as well.
Cannon fodder.
The Leopard 2 stores significant ammounts of ammo just next to the driver position. Also it’s hull frontal armor is rather underwhelming for a modern MBT, it’s frontal turret on the other hand is extremelly thick.
Did some more research on this tank. So it would seem that the armor layering effort was originally a british design from the early 60’s… Thats the problem right there lol j/k
Well I don’t see any challenger tanks like this so yeah :/
That secondary frontal storage cooking off would explain the complete loss of the front left section of the Leopard 2A4 in photo six, it is catastrophic to say the least.
the problem is not in the armor but in the chain of command. Every day is more clear that the Turkish Army has been severely hampered by purges after the coup against Erdogan. The tank crews in theirselves are less responsible than the Battalion and possibly Company commanders that ordered moves into areas not properly scouted and prepared by means of fire support. Looking at the wrecks it appears clear that these vehicles have been destroyed while engaging hostiles, and not on strategic movement (I mean surprised by ambushes). This makes mid-level officers the most likely “culprits”. Also pls note, that the Turkish army never was renown for high standards in training and organization even before the coup.
You need combined arms effort supporting the tanks, if ATGM shooters take a shot against the tank and they successfully take it out, the combined arms should identify their location and clean them up. Also, using helicopters to support ground armored attacks with good loiter time is important to provide tanks with suppressing fire neutralizing enemy vehicles and AtGM nests.
Deploying a few tanks here and a few tanks there, is poor strategy in an open area with tank crews that are not well trained. Tanks have to operate in larger formations with supporting vehicles so they can cover for each other and take out enemy targets.
Instead of loosing million + dollars per unit, the Turks can invest a few hundred thousand dollars and buy active protection systems for these tanks and neutralize the ATGM threat.
Stationary or poorly positioned tanks become easy targets when front lines are fluid, and your enemy knows the terrain a lot better.
It’s actually the VBIED’s mostly, and not ATGM’s that destroys the Turkish tanks. What is your solution against VBIED’s?
I really appreciate your comment.
it’s a tactical problem that has already been brought up on these pages. I’m afraid that currently there is no established method or tactic to counter that threat: the only way to reduce the vbied threat is to pay particular attention to all security related tasks. VBIEDs are employed both against stationary units and also against those engaged in combat. Stationary units need to pay particular attention to all the security related tasks; commanders need to be briefed on possible vbied threats and constantly kept updated. Probably there will be the need to organize and train specialized guarding units devoted solely to engage vbieds: those teams need to be equipped with sensors and weapons (pickup trucks armed with HMGs and autocannons could be ideal) able to deal with those vehicles. The distribution of battlefield surveillance equipment should be augmented to the lowest level possible, VBIEDs tactics analyzed so that the attacking vehicles can be recognized in the shortest time and dealt with. Also while units are engaged, there should be again teams devoted to engage possible vbieds charging the flanks or even the rear of them. Constant surveillance of possible approach lanes is imperative. Sadly, all the above still is not a real solution to the problem, and it also may be costly in some cases, but the threat can be reduced by a significative margin. Also we must not forget preemptive tactics: the vehicles are normally prepared in some kinds of workshops. Careful intelligence and again surveillance work can uncover their locations so that they can be neutralized by airstrike or other means.
I was also thinking of close air support, in forms of heli’s. But, I’m afraid that ISIS possesses MANPADS or similar guided missile systems, I’m not sure if ATGM’s can be served against heli’s?
Another way of reducing this threat may also be found in heavy sniper rifles .50 calibers such as Barett? To knock down the engine block of the VBIED’s.
Helicopters can be employed but it’s not cost effective to assign them exclusively to anti-vbied role. Moreover, there needs to be almost realtime communications among the ground units and them (its much more complicated than it sounds as you need to connect basically everybody on the battlefield, which mission-wise is a nightmare), and in case a vbied is detected, assign their targeting to these helis. It’s not a problem of firepower – but of quick reaction in case these threats are detected.
ATGMS have a limited use against helis, if they are flying basically in a straight line or hovering. ATGMS are not made to perform large angular movements, especially wireguided ones.
Sniper rifles are next to useless as those vehicles move too fast. Even the best trained sniper in the world will have very low chances of stopping vbieds no matter the caliber of his weapon, considering that most of the times those vehicles are armored.
imho the best weapons would be HMGs with AP-Incendiary ammo and autocannons (Like the zu-23 largely present in Syria). Another solution would be automatic grenade launchers, especially with HEDP ammo.
I was also considering that they would like to fortify the engine blocks, such that heavy sniper rifles becomes almost useless.
Helis will be very expensive, to operate 24/7, that’s entirely true. And also very dangerous task, it could be catastrophic if ISIS posseses some sort of anti air guns or guided missiles.
I am not known with the AP-incendiary ammo, would you elaborate in this?
I don’t know what know though if grenade launchers would be efficient enough, due to lack of precision. Maybe better solutions are some fast moving guided missiles that is not IR controlled but somewhat “geometrical locking” solution – if you understand what I mean.
How can a VBIED charge a tank without being eliminated by the tank gun? Unless the tank crew was on a break or not paying attention. I find it hard to see how a VBIED can charge a tank formation in open terrain without being taken out. For example, a VBIED moving at 40 MPH is charging a tank formation that can fire 105MM or 120MM rounds at a rate of 3-5 per minute per tank, the VBIED would be easily destroyed, before it gets close.
VBIED work effectively against static or fixed defenses, tanks should not be used to guard static defenses. Recoiless rifles, antitank emplacements layered by IFV equipped with a 30MM gun would be a good and inexpensive way to defend against these suicide bombers.
Dump truck truck bomb deployed by ISIS near Palmyra – 45 tons of explosive. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b2108f634905f244a54c64c5b338f24cf5aa74e3eea33b0a8dc24d8d5b69b7d3.jpg
How can you miss such a target on the battlefield? Of course if NDF was equipped with light weapons unable to stop the movement of this VBIED and the heavy weapons were deployed in an ineffective manner; any recoiless rifle, tank gun or ATGM would neutralize this target.
It sounds logical, but I think the VBIED moves much faster than 40 MPH, my guess would rather be around 80 MPH, and I don’t know what kind of crazy movements the suicide driver is making.
I also think, it’s possibly an unknown vehicle that drives normally, and suddenly changes its route when coming closer to the tanks and blowing off.
But I’m not sure in any of these, it’s all my guesses of what the scenario in the front would likely look like.
The Turkish army with their best officers arrested or thrown out has become a BULUK ASKER (disorganized mob)
No – there are rounds stored in the front of the hull next to the driver – these were targeted and cooked off in one wreck I can see. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/99933002292405b8b8a7fe7f4450189d343998c6c314152ef0b5e3d18a9fac86.jpg
you are incorrect in that leopard 2 tanks only stored part of its ammo on the turret bustle storage like the abrams. in fact the leopard stored ammo also on the front hull section near the driver.
it is a badly designed tank in that regards , no blow up panels for the front hull ammo racks. Compared to abrams tank , the unproven leopard 2 are unsafe..
No, I was referring to the concept, not the design. Read actively, not reactionary.
but you clearly stated leopard’s ammo storage as the same as abrams , which is factually wrong because leopard still store ammo inside the hull , that increase the risk of internal explosion , thus unsafe design or concept or whatever you might call it.
Read my op again:
“The ammunition storage area on the Leopard is simular in concept as the M1 abrams,”
yes i reread you post and it is a different concept , as abrams stored ALL ammo on turret racks with blow up panels, and leopard main storage is the hull storage which is high risk if the hull penetrated
If you compare cost of tank with cost of missile that destroyed it …the missile is but a fraction. ISIS likely has lots of men to sacrifice. But how many ATGM does it have. What type weapon did this?
They sure have had many ATGMs, but to be honest some of the photos do not look like missile damage. It looks too catastrophic for that. Look at picture 5 with the Cobra on its side on the road. Behind it is a little crater. That crater, and the amount of damage inflicted to the Leopards looks to me like aerial bombs. I would contend that at least some of this is laser guided bombs dropped from great altitude (out of sight) with laser designators on the ground. Someone is helping ISUS – I wonder who? Who would want to stab the Turks in the back?
Lazer guided or GPS guided mortar shells ? But that is way too complex for ISIS right?
GPS guidance only good for stationary targets, so laser is more likely. Perhaps too complex for ISUS but it only takes one professional laser designator. Plus the co-operating air force. My guess would be USAF in the air (even a drone) and an Israeli designator blending with ISUS.
From 2011-2015, the Marines and Raytheon developed the precision extended range munition (PERM) for the EFSS, a GPS-guided round that delivers greater range and better accuracy. The 35 lb (16 kg) round increases range from 8 km (5.0 mi) to 16 km (9.9 mi), falling within 10 meters of the target and as close as two meters, costing $18,000 each, and having 2.5-3 times more lethality. The extra range comes from tail fins for stabilization and canards near the nose to make in-flight adjustments and make it glide as it descends, and the greater lethality is a result of this flight path; normal artillery rounds impact at a 45 degree angle, which blows the top half of the round straight up into the air, but descending at a sharp angle places more energy and fragmentation directly on a target. It is even capable of hitting reverse slope positions by shaping its trajectory. Greater accuracy also reduces logistical burdens, as using fewer rounds to destroy one target means a unit can last longer without needing resupply. The PERM will begin fielding in 2018. Raytheon plans to add semi-active laser (SAL) guidance to PERM rounds to enable them to hit moving targets.[5][6][4][7]………….This is likely beyond ISIS technology
From 2011-2015, the Marines and Raytheon developed the precision extended range munition (PERM) for the EFSS, a GPS-guided round that delivers greater range and better accuracy. The 35 lb (16 kg) round increases range from 8 km (5.0 mi) to 16 km (9.9 mi), falling within 10 meters of the target and as close as two meters, costing $18,000 each, and having 2.5-3 times more lethality. The extra range comes from tail fins for stabilization and canards near the nose to make in-flight adjustments and make it glide as it descends, and the greater lethality is a result of this flight path; normal artillery rounds impact at a 45 degree angle, which blows the top half of the round straight up into the air, but descending at a sharp angle places more energy and fragmentation directly on a target. It is even capable of hitting reverse slope positions by shaping its trajectory. Greater accuracy also reduces logistical burdens, as using fewer rounds to destroy one target means a unit can last longer without needing resupply. The PERM will begin fielding in 2018. Raytheon plans to add semi-active laser (SAL) guidance to PERM rounds to enable them to hit moving targets.[5][6][4][7] Mass produced the cost would be cheap.
Discussions about Tanks and mostly about main battle tanks are always focusing on expactations such as invincible armor protection or %100 crew protection. Which I always find very unrelevant. Althoug it is pretended that “armor-mobility-fire power” balance makes a perfect tank, the most important skill of a tank is its fire power. At the first hand it should bring heaviest tactical firepower for a single unit. Than planners must decide between mobility and armor. But no one can sacrifice fire power. modern ammo can penetrate anything. which is limeted with the mobility expectancy. So it is really unefficient to invest on armor.
Active protection on the other hand is very expensive, complicated and has one use effect, which gives a temporary advantage, if ever. I also remember T-90 tanks shot by FSA ATGMs. each time crew jumps out. Not because they are idiots or untrained. But I think when a tank shot by a huge HEAT round many systems shot down temporarily and crew dont want to stay inside risking a second shot. T-90s have good reactive protection adn they stand better than Leo2A4s. However, I never saw that they return fire. Meaning one old ATGM shot and the best ATGM protected Tank is out of action.
I really admire Russian mentality when it comes to Tank design. But no tank can be designed fully for urban warfare and against ATGM because of budgets. Everybody tries to limit the costs. So they can produce a tank that can perform moderately in many different field (at best). If you design something like merkava then you have a bridge crusher, bugged turtle when it comes to fight a very fast paced operatipona armored warfare in muddy countries with full of forests. You dont give a Cent for an Abrams if you have limited fuel. Thats Why I still apreciate Leo2s. They are some sort of Western compromise. A western tank which can perform anywhere averagely.
Turkish Army has those in the inventory. They use them. What woulld you do instead of them if you shuol fight wit isis. Produce a new tank for just 1 year operation, spending more millions. No you wouldnt.
And before pretending that turks are idiots or so, please remember the great Russian Army armor loses durin Chechen campaign. That Time T-72s and T-80 were modern tanks and Chechens didnt use ATGMs mostly, but RPGs. Would it than make Russins brainless being because they lost so many tnaks there. Of course NOT. Neiter Russian nor turkish army are built for low intensity urban warfare. And They can not be built. Their survival depends on their abilities to counter huge conventional armies. So unfortunately they can not invest much on urban fighting. Thats why they will always lose some numbers.
Now they can crawl back to turkey and so long their “moderate jihadists” will not attack them inner turkey they can kill kurdish woman and children instead!
.. but i think in the end is turkey maybe (hoply not..) lost to jihasidm… THEIR OTTOMAN “CULTURE”..!
SYRIA will NOT FORGET, WHO was supporting the jihashits 5 years along!!
Hanny Benny
“…SYRIA will NOT FORGET, WHO was supporting the jihashits 5 years along!!…”
Not only 5 years ago but even as at today, Turkey continuous to be the facilitator on behalf of US, UK, France, NATO, Saudi, Qatar, Arab axis for financing, arming and training of terrorists in Syria.
The Turks can never ever be trusted.
sad but true..
“The Turks can never ever be trusted”.
You are so right ! They will turn on friend and foe alike if they think they will gain something.
it is actually not true… Turks are known for great as friends but you would never want them as foes
Izzettin
The Turks are known for being dishonest and untrustworthy as well the “Sick man of Europe” primarily as 90% of it is in Asia.
Syria never did anything to harm Turkey, instead since 1998 started to bridge their divide with full culmination in 2009 for cooperation on areas in political, security, commerce, culture, health, agriculture, environment, transportation, education and water.
http://www.mfa.gov.tr/relations-between-turkey%E2%80%93syria.en.mfa
In return the dishonest Turks destroyed Syria.
When I use the term “Turks” I mean the Turkish government . Those they perceive as weak they subvert and subjugate. They consider you as “friend” as long as it suits their goals but they turn on you when they feel they have the upper hand. As an example : Israel is the “biggest enemy” to Muslims in the middle East . Turkey allied with Israel against fellow Muslim countries . The moment they perceived that they could get an advantage they turned on Israel. Even today how many friends do they have with all the countries they live next to? Not many. I wonder why…..
ariston53
Syria never did anything to harm Turkey, instead since 1998 started to bridge their relationship with full culmination in 2009 for cooperation on areas in political, security, commerce, culture, health, agriculture, environment, transportation, education and water.
http://www.mfa.gov.tr/relations-between-turkey%E2%80%93syria.en.mfa
In return the dishonest Turks destroyed Syria.
i had before 2 years a dark vision of turkey..
also before 2 years starts 2(!) turkish friend of mine to say:
“turkey is lost!”
i hope i get wrong
they are running more accelarated to half-ottoman godstate with civilwar-..
i
fear the jihadists will start this year to attack big mooschees and
peacefull imams in turkey(the same strategy from ISIS was uncovered in
Iraq and Syria)
i fear the turkish military is undermined through jihadists(see the killing of russian ambassador Mr. Andrei Karlov)
i fear they will drive this beautifull country with some very lovely people to a new “ottoman” calipHell..
o.O
no chance…
i hope so..
just today i had a discussion with a turkish friend, he says his olders are in turkey in fear, just everybody is suspect.. o.O
Hanny Benny
Turkey has always been a loser nation as well as under the control of the Neoconservatives who have a 1050 year history of being losers and of promoting wars, conflicts and chaos.
Turkey under Neoconservative control started its vision of a NeoOttoman Empire in the 1990’s after the dissolution of the USSR which granted independence to its Republics.
The Turks failed to gain geopolitical control of Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, etc. and moved its focus towards the Arab states and embarked on the Syrian war.
And the Turkish government was planning an attack on the russkies several months ago? lol
If these tanks are being penetrated frontally then the Chobham-like armour package is obsolete and dangerous. It’s time for the Turkish infantry to step up. Lighten up the forces with more automatic weapons , gun trucks , mortars and attack helicopter support. Send them in to fight toe to toe with Isis. Half hearted failed attempts like these only sew more discontent within the Turkish Army ranks and could lead to a mutiny. Another worrying concern is the number of Islamist sympathisers within the Turkish Army itself. What if mid level officers planning the daily operations are Isis sympathisers??. What in case they are passing intelligence of operations to Isis beforehand in exchange for money?? Just a few months ago the Turks were still trading oil for weapons with Isis. There is massive Isis support and an illicit Isis supply and logistics network within Turkey itself . Many government , police and military officials benefit financially from turning a blind eye to this. You don’t expect those financial relationships and networks to disappear overnight now?? Turkish skullduggery could lead to an Islamist uprising in the country itself. The best Turkish forces are being used to suppress the PKK in Turkey itself. This Syrian operation is just window dressing.
-What if mid level officers planning the daily operations are Isis sympathisers?-… thats no chance, i know cause i grew up in military in Turkey… Even modern islamist almost non existent in Turkish army.. 99.9 % staunch secular officers… It is a new regular warfare and they are learning this in first hand… That place is full of traps and tunnels as ISIS has been preparing for this for the last year or so…
Unfortunately I think most of the effective officers you speak of have been purged and replaced by Erdogan’s cronies. That was the reason for the staged coup attempt last year. The people willing to see reason were replaced by Erdogan’s Islamist lackies. Anyway this is not a new type of warfare , this is exactly the same kind of warfare waged by and against the Kurds in Turkey. The best Turkish troops are being used against their own people. Press freedom is severely limited in Turkey hence we don’t hear of the scale of atrocities committed against the Kurds.Anyway with Turkey being a Nato member the mainstream media turns a blind eye. I appreciate the fact that you grew up within and support the secular Turkish Army. Unfortunately Erdogan has deceived the Turkish people and filled the higher echelons of Intelligence , Police and the Army with his Islamist cronies. These people have benefited from their association with Isis and Al Nusrah and are still benefiting.
i understand what are you saying, it is a ‘very’ common misconception about what has been happening in Turkey… Since the purge, all the old ‘staunchly secular’ military figures replacing the ranks again… They got the ropes and Erdogan has no choice but follow… The coup attempt last year was by the sympathisers of a mullah (who lives in the states) and was islamic in its nature… these secular generals saw it was coming and they had the names ready two-three years in advance(these are the officers who has been sacked or put in jail)… and they literally ‘saved’ Erdogan (and their country turning into a colony)… anyway, things are more complicated than it seems from outside but you will see gradually… even siding with Russia and operation against ISIS (after the coup attempt) should give you a hint… cheers
Ok ….thanks for the clarity. Let’s see how it unfolds. What about the Kurds in Turkey though??
Izzettin,
your opinion in honour,
but you don’t think that exists also a growing chance, that the islamists get over important turkish army parts?
think off, the military get more and more cleared of secularists and also in the kurdish civilwar is a lot of infos that says the turkish army uses jihadists in the front for “clearings”..
i can be wrong (i hope so !), but i fear the jihadists will try to kill/control the goverment to take over power..
what is your “security” about this?
how you can be sure, this cannot happen..
sorry i can’t beliefe, that there is no stronger islamization as some years before(in your army-time)..
As far as catastrophic hits against Leopard tanks. You must consider that these pictures are being supplied by ISUS. A tank can also be further destroyed after capture. Some of the turrets are a good distance from body (may have been towed or dragged?) Just consider the source.
That’s what happens when over 300 senior officers are thrown in jail and inexperienced sycophants move tanks in built up areas without trained infantry. Turkey has set the record in tank losses in one day.
The record set is at battle of Kursk, July 12,1943. 1500 tanks where involved from both sides. This record will never be broken!
Leopards hit by turkish f-16 just in case enemy doesnt captures them. Damage caused by upwards bombardment as you can see. Turkish sources confirmes this as well.
“…ISIS RELEASES MORE PHOTOS OF TURKISH MILITARY HARDWARE CAPTURED OR DESTROYED IN CLASHES FOR AL-BAB…”
Usually there would be ISIS terrorists gloating over their war booty of which there are none in these photos.
ISIS terrorists are financed, trained and armed by the US, UK, NATO, Turk – Arab axis and these photos may be staged by the Turks and their Saudi – Qatar stooges using worn out equipment.
First off its Turks running these tanks and they are in the basic Leopard version, no reactive armour or grating as the Canadian have outfitted their tanks. The Abrams is just a vulnerable in its basic armor package, these tanks might as well been a T-72. If these tanks were hit with the American made Javelin missile then no tank has a hope in hell of surviving!! I would take a Leopard 2A6 over any tank in the world!! These tanks are of the early A4, A5 versions again with basic armour. Also if a RPG or missile gets through the armour where the ammo is it will have an instand reaction and because the rounds are within the tank it will build pressure 2x, 4x, etc causing so much pressure it would blow that tank apart like nobodies business!! These fk’rs shouldn’t have these modern tanks, they don’t know how to use the equipment properly for one!.
These are old model leopard 2 models. They do not use Chobham armor. Turkey has better tanks than this model. If these tanks were immobilized and could not be recovered they would be destroyed by the Turks. The Leopard show likely detonation of ammunition inside the tank. That is why the turrets are of. If it was hit by a missile the initial hit is likely to leave only a small hole. A blast of hot metal perces the armor. That may set of ammunition blasting the turret of. It is the tanks own ammunition that sets of the big blast lifting the turret. Or it was set of by the crew when they left.